I will also agree with that the debate can go on and on about which is better. There are going to be bad and good on both sides. I have worked on both sides.
I know up here the Local's, when it comes to training and safety it suck at it, so I do have to agree on that point.
I think the one thing we can state is that the longer you have been around the easier it is to have to build a crew up and maintain them.
I've got to agree with John on this one. The argument is a 50/50 street. I have worked union and open shop and you get A and D types from both areas. I have worked with a number of nonunion workers who are careful and safe and I have maintained a near perfect safety record for nearly twenty years. I have also used union labor and operators that were the bottom of the barrel but I had to use them per contract.
The argument with Union/Non-unioun goes both ways. I worked with Cleveland Wrecking out of Philly in the mid 80's and I worked with Union guys out of Local 1421 in Boston when I was with Cleveland and Testa. I worked with some of the best wreckers around. I also worked for Central Salvage and they had some good hands out of the Philly Local. These Companies had developed their crews over time. I have been on the non-union side now for over 14 years and worked with some really great Burners, and Operators, I got a few now I would put up against anyone. The Safety argument is BS I got crews doing high profile demo. projects in Petro-Chemical plants and big commercial work and our Company's safety performance is outstanding. We've never had a lost time injury in over 13 years.
NukeWorker;7714 said:
Union jobs ae infinitely safer. The workers are better trained. On the non union jobs I was hard pressed to even find someone who could speak English.LVI isn't really a good anaolgy in Philadelphia. As a newcomer to the market, they got all the C and D listers. The A's and B's were already hired by the older more established wrecking companies.
I have to agree with that analogy. I worked for a non-union contractor for awhile , we decide to go union and all we got out of the hall were the C and D's. When we hired an established general field superindent that belong to the union, who work previously for an "established" demo company, he got us all the A and B workers and things slowly turned around.
Council vote could derail progress in hiring, bidding.
By Jane M. Von Bergen
Inquirer Staff Writer
Here's what scares Walter "Butch" Bennett, an African American business agent for the union workers who operate the demolition equipment on the Convention Center job site:
A bunch of personalities get into a ego battle at City Hall over minority hiring for Convention Center construction and the next thing you know, the expansion gets built by nonunion workers who don't know what they're doing.
"That would be a crying shame," Bennett said. "You are talking about taking work from skilled craftsmen, whatever race they are."
Here's what scares Walter Palmer 3d, the white leader of an organization that represents contractors who work with union labor:
A bunch of personalities get into an ego battle at City Hall and the next thing you know, unrealistic quotas get proposed that would perpetuate a system that has not done enough over the years to encourage minority participation in construction - either as contractors or as tradespeople on the job site.
"That's really nice and wonderful, to frighten the unions," Palmer said sarcastically, "but I don't think it is going to help the minority community in this city that is in crisis and needs real jobs."
On Thursday, City Council stunned political observers in a town where organized labor carries a lot of clout. Accusing trade unions of standing in the way of minority-hiring objectives, it opened the $700 million Convention Center expansion to nonunion contractors and workers.
The proposal created an immediate political flap that, observers say, could turn the problem of minority hiring into a union vs. nonunion imbroglio.
Minority leaders have long complained that the city's construction unions have not done enough to bring blacks and Hispanics into the trades. Many union people agree, despite some recent progress.
On Thursday, Councilman W. Wilson Goode Jr. said of the vote, "Thus begins an era ending the [union] monopoly of the training and supply of construction labor." John Macklin will believe that when he sees it.
"They are talking about minorities and female. They have always been saying it," said Macklin, president of the Philadelphia chapter of the National Association of Minority Contractors. "We are looking for implementation."
Like Palmer, Macklin said goals have to be realistic, union or nonunion. There's no sense in offering minority contractors $1 million and $2 million contracts. "We don't have the resources and the finances to participate, and they know it," Macklin said. "It's just an illusion of inclusion."
On Thursday, Councilman Frank DiCicco, who has been at loggerheads with the building-trades unions over casino construction, proposed the amendment, taking up a cause promulgated by African American council members.
He and Patrick Gillespie, business manager for the Philadelphia Building and Construction Trades Council, exchanged sharp words when Gillespie could not produce statistics about minority membership in the council's 42 unions.
"It's pure personal, and that's a shame," Rep. Bob Brady, head of the city's Democratic party and a union carpenter who often brokers these kinds of disputes, said yesterday. "I'm going to try to work the phones" before the ordinance comes for a final vote Thursday, he said.
Brady said City Council was right to push for more inclusion of minorities among the construction trades. "I've been trying to get more inclusion," he said.
"What happened at City Council is extremely unfortunate," said Anthony Wigglesworth, executive director of the Philadelphia Area Labor Management Committee, which has been negotiating a pre-construction agreement between the Convention Center Authority and the building trades.
"My sense is that people are taking a long, deep breath at this stage of the game," he said.
"Once you engage nonunion contractors, for the building trades, it's a form of fighting," Wigglesworth said. "Then diversity becomes the baby that gets thrown out with the bath water."
The two Walters - Palmer and Bennett - hope there can be a resolution.
At the Convention Center demolition site yesterday, there were six apprentices from Bennett's union, International Union Operating Engineers Local 542. Five were African American. There were six full-fledged Local 542 union members on the site - two African American.
Bennett said he knows many unions have a long way to go before they are as inclusive as his is. But he asked: "If the Convention Center pulls in someone off the street, who are they hiring? How can you give a job to someone who is not skilled?"
Palmer, who heads the General Building Contractors Association, thinks the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners, the Laborers International Union of North America, and Bennett's union have been the most successful in pushing diversity.
As for many of the others, "I think that where we are is abysmal," he said. "A lot of the blame goes onto the trades, a lot goes to City Council, and a lot goes onto the mayor's office. What they have created is nothing substantial, but a hopeless situation.
"Pulling someone off the corner of 15th and Master," in a predominantly African American neighborhood, "and working them for 50 or 60 hours a week until the job is done will not solve the problem," Palmer said. "The way to solve the problem is to teach them a skill or a craft . . . and we have the finest training facilities in the country."
He said it takes months to prepare novices for quality construction work, even before they learn specialized skills.
If there is no resolution, things won't be pretty, observers agreed. First, the unions will not participate in a nonunion project, Gillespie said.
Nonunion contractors will not be in a hurry to bid for the job, said Geoffrey Zeh, president of the Southeast Pennsylvania Chapter, Associated Builders and Contractors, a group of nonunion builders.
Though opening up the bidding might result in lower costs, "the climate has been so poisoned that contractors might say, 'Why bother with the hassle?' " Zeh said.
"The disruptions because of unqualified workers would be monumental," said Patrick Eiding, who heads the Philadelphia Council of the AFL-CIO. "Everybody would lose."
7:41 AM
September 22, 2006
This is my Oppinion>>> Good for the Non Union Demo Guys...When I worked for LVI I had some of the laziest and most worthless employees and they were union out of Philly. Its about time someone figured out that a non union can do just as good as a job as union.... I will put myself and my operators up aginst any union operators any day even my laborers as well..... O Yeah they were a bunch of CRYBABYS as well
Accusing trade unions of standing in the way of minority hiring objectives, City Council yesterday declared the $700 million Convention Center expansion open to nonunion contractors and workers - an unprecedented gesture in a city dominated by organized labor.
> Citing the construction industry's repeated failures to meet minority hiring goals on public projects and the unions' refusal to disclose the racial makeup of their memberships, Council voted to amend the Convention Center's operating agreement to allow nonunion workers, to help increase minority participation.
> Such a change would face final Council approval Thursday, and Gov. Rendell would have to agree to it.
> Mayor-elect Michael Nutter appeared to support Council's action yesterday.
> "Clearly, that amendment represents the frustration that many of us have felt in creating opportunities for African Americans and Latin Americans in terms of access to the construction trades and participating in all the tremendous construction activity in Philadelphia," said Nutter. "We must create a more diverse workforce in the construction industry in the city."
> The very thought of allowing nonunion contractors on a major public works project in Philadelphia stunned longtime observers.
> "Wow," said public relations executive A. Bruce Crawley, one of the city's leading critics of the union's efforts at hiring minorities. "Wow."
> "This is very encouraging for African American contractors who would simply like not to be excluded from the work," he said.
> Patrick Gillespie, business manager for the Philadelphia Building and Construction Trades Council, said such a requirement would endanger the project labor agreement the 42 local unions he represents are negotiating with the Convention Center Authority. Such agreements are common before major projects - they set the standards of work and pay, usually require union labor, and are meant to avoid job disruptions.
> "I wouldn't enter into a deal where it would allow people to work nonunion. What's the point of that?" he said. "To lose the protection of collective bargaining?
> "People can amend things there [in Council], I guess, but they cannot amend our world."
> Albert Mezzaroba, Convention Center president and CEO, said he thought approval of the agreement by Council should allow the project to move forward.
> Gillespie's failure to produce statistics on the racial makeup of the council's unions - he also would not provide that information in 2003, when the stadiums for the Eagles and Phillies were being built - prompted Councilman Frank DiCicco to offer the amendment.
> "With there being no movement from the building trades . . . they essentially left this Council no choice," said Councilman W. Wilson Goode Jr. "And thus begins an era ending the monopoly of the training and supply of construction labor."
> It all began peacefully as Council members praised new and increased hiring goals for the Convention Center expansion - 50 percent of the jobs and contracts are to go to minorities and women. But Councilman Darrell L. Clarke and others said that while the city had progressed in awarding more contracts to minority-owned firms, the makeup of the construction trades continually frustrated goals for hiring individuals.
> The hearing turned sour as Council members questioned Gillespie, pressing him for statistics, even taking an hour-long break and offering him use of the clerk's office to make phone calls. Gillespie told Council members he didn't know - and couldn't find out on short notice - the racial makeup of the council's 42 local unions.
> "We've been doing this for years - round and round and round and round," said Councilwoman Marian Tasco. "We ask all the time what is the membership of the trades, and we never get an answer."
> That's when DiCicco stepped in with an amendment to the operating agreement involving the city, state and authority that requires Council approval.
> "It's been a long time coming," said DiCicco. "In the 12 years I've been here, nothing has really changed regarding minority hiring."
> DiCicco and Gillespie are both members of the Convention Center's board.
> Gillespie said he resented Council's insinuations, and said the building trades council did meet hiring goals consistently.
> "Everything you've done here today is a canard," he told DiCicco. "There's some perception here that the building trades are entirely made up of white people."
> Gillespie said about 300 of 400 apprentices taken from the Philadelphia School District were minority.
> Tom Muldoon, president of the Philadelphia Convention and Visitors Bureau, told Council that six major events in 2010 had to be canceled because of delays. The expansion project has had repeated delays and is now supposed to be completed by early 2011.
> "We're beginning to lose credibility," Muldoon said.
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